Guess What? Men Can Be Steaming Plates of “Crazy,” Too

Photo Credit

If a man has a psycho ex (or exes), he either has a taste for crazy women…or he does things that drive normal women insane.  Either way, it doesn’t bode well for you. – Aldonza

“Someone who would do this, make this kind of effort, is pissed off or really, really desperate to hold on to their relationship. Only fear, a need for revenge or anger could fuel such behavior.

If a woman is driven to that, then there’s a really good chance that the man is so messed up and so emotionally abusive that he’s not worth the time.” – Moxie

Your conclusion as to the man’s state of being has no foundation. Sometimes some people are just crazy and invent relationships that never existed or didn’t reach the level they wanted. People who behave this way are obviously very unhappy with their lives and are looking for someone else to blame for this unhappiness. Perhaps Moxie should start a course in how to MOVE ON. I see a big market out there, but then again, these people might be to ignorant to know they need this class.- Bronx Rebel

Okay. Here’s my argument.

I think that there are some men out there who are complete and total catastrophes when it comes to relationships. To be clear…The Crazy can take many forms. Crazy can imply controlling, or manipulative or intentionally insensitive or passive aggressive.

They do things like:

• Invite a woman they are trying to bed over to their apartment. That they share with their girlfriend. Who happens to be home at the time. (No, this did not happen to me.)
  

• Dates multiple women at the same time, friends them all on Facebook, and let’s them all post their various flirty banter on his Wall for all to see. – Sorry, guys who do this are drama queens. Plain and simple. Don’t give me the “well nobody is forcing these women to check his Wall” argument, either. These guys aren’t clueless. No, this did not happen to me.
• Makes specific plans with a woman, then stands her up, only to turn around and tell her that she never confirmed so he assumed they weren’t meeting up. – Oh, hello there passive aggression. Yes. This happened to me.

• Or..let’s see…I’m going to put something totally random and absolutely hypothetical out there...writes a guest post for your blog about all the value he gets from his relationship with you, expounds on all that you taught him and how he hopes when it ends it ends in a spirit of friendship and understanding, then tells you it wasn’t a “break up” letter…and then kicks your ass to the curb 2 days later in a 1,000 word missive where he must have said 5 different times in 5 different ways how unimportant you were, how he’d never be able to be a real friend to you,  and that he just now realized all this and was in denial, but still maintained that he “genuinely, affectionately liked you.”  Which was 4 days after you said to him “Hey, I don’t think you’re terribly interested. So let’s talk about that before I agree, at your request,  to be patient while you  travel all around the country for the next month” and he insisted his intentions were honorable. Side Note: If this were, say, two years ago I probably would have posted his letters and guest post on this blog. I thank God I didn’t.  I’ve done it in the past. I did it because I enjoyed the drama and I felt justified when I really wasn’t. I totally asked for what I got in this situation and am far, far too old to have been as stupid as I was. I knew it was a mistake and proceeded any way.  Publicly shaming him on a blog won’t change that. When we (or at least I) lash out, it’s usually because we feel so powerless that we just need to take back some semblance of control. Only it really just makes matters worse because it makes us look “crazy.” Or at least ridiculously childish. I promised him I wouldn’t do that. Regardless of how badly I believe (because, as a blogger, my POV is almost always skewed by my emotions)  he acted, I’ll hold true to that. We both fucked up. We were both stubborn and cowardly, for different reasons.

We’ve been doing a lot of harshing on the ladies here lately, but I think it’s fair to say that some of you Penii People are uh…difficult.. yourselves. Intentionally so. Some of you. Not the majority, not all. Some. Just like “some” women can be irrational and delusional. We’re just asking that you own it instead of acting above it. I’m sure the argument from some men will be that we never take responsibility for our behavior. Many of us do. Really.

When the situation I mentioned above first happened, I pointed a lot if not all the blame on him. “He humiliated me” I said. One long time commenter corrected me. “No…YOU humiliated you.” And I did.  I let someone get the best of me. That’s why I was angry. It wasn’t a broken heart that I suffered. It was a bruised ego. I hate that I’m even still talking about it, as it implies that I’m not fully “over it” and have not “moved on” as Bronx Rebel suggests.

What keeps us from fulling moving on is this need to have our hurt feelings acknowledged in a sincere and genuine way. Not with a blanket statement and sweeping admittance of guilt. We want an itemized list of every mistake. We want to know that you’ve actually thought about this apology and that you’ve truly acknowledged  what you did was wrong.   But that’s our cross to bear, isn’t it?  Because the chances of us ever getting that apology is slim to none. And knowing that and owning it..well…it can drive a person a little mad. But that doesn’t mean the guy is totally absolved of any wrong doing.

I was talking with a friend recently. He’s a man I’ve occasionally gotten together with for sex in the past. The last time was several years ago. Maybe 3. Every once in a while he’ll shoot an email to me to say hello. And by “hello” I mean “hey, wanna f—?” I’ve turned him down multiple times, he still tries, and usually it just dissolves in to a conversation about our respective lives and we catch up.  We got in to a  conversation about how we managed to avoid any drama or conflict. (He actually agreed to let me interview him for a podcast. Stay tuned on that.) He gave me the same answer Tad gave me when I asked him.

“I don’t lie to you and don’t pretend this is something it isn’t.”

It really is that simple, guys. If a woman can carry on casual relationships  with men without getting attached or maintain non-combative relationships with exes, then it stands to reason that she’s not totally high maintenance, needy or cloying.  Only when certain triggers are tripped does she go “nuts.” Sometimes you bring that out in us. It’s our job to know what our triggers are exist, of course. But there are some people – men and women – out there who just get off on pushing people’s buttons. Sometimes they’re aware of it. Most time they’re not. Or are “in denial.” Whatever the reason…just like we need to know what our triggers are…you need to know and admit that you’re tripping them.

I do not disagree with Bronx Rebel in that sometimes women invent relationships that do not exist. I agree. We try to bang the square peg in to the round hole and then blame the man for our hurt feelings. I understand. But there are some men that want women to do that. That’s all I’m asking you to acknowledge. Sometimes a guy does or says things to intentionally encourage a woman to think that whatever they have going on is  more than it is so that he can have more control over her.  Doing that implies an intimacy that does not exist. It’s a trick. And it’s intentional.

Maybe the more accurate theory is that we all have our issues and just need to find people who are accommodating of or compatible with our crazy.  Someone who pushes our buttons in a good way and encourages us to look within and examine our own issues. (Which, I guess, my situation did do for me. So it wasn’t a total loss. )

 

 

POST SCRIPT: I tried to write this so many times without getting personal and I couldn’t. I did the best I could here. To coin an excellent phrase, “this is me more raw and self-aware than I’ve ever allowed myself to be where you’re concerned, and I actually hate myself for it.”

I Didn’t Mean to Lead You On..Or Did I?

If your actions have caused someone to believe in your continued interest, then you need to take responsibility for that, not blame the other person for trusting you too soon. You can blame the victim all you want, but that’s just an excuse to be a douchebag. – Paula

You can’t force someone to be accountable for their behavior. Either they care or they don’t. Trying to force feed them accountability rarely works. In theory, people “should” take responsibility for being insensitive or self-serving. But most people don’t, whether it be out of arrogance or shame. I think that’s a high expectation to place on someone, unfortunately. I think the people who do practice introspection and self-awareness and can acknowledge their mistakes AND apologize for them are rare. It’s the belief that this is the “typical” way of behaving is why so many people get frustrated in these situations. It’s not typical. It’s sadly atypical. – Moxie

Nobody has to take responsibility for hurting you. Nobody cares. They don’t care enough to wonder about their actions and how they have affected you. You mean nothing to them.  – Vox

I don’t agree that “nobody” cares. Plenty of people do know that they’ve hurt someone or been disingenuous, and they feel like shit for it. I don’t agree that everybody is some soulless douchebag. And it does tend to create this idea amongst those who think this way that it’s perfectly okay to be an asshole. Just because someone might believe they’re not responsible for someone else’s feelings doesn’t mean they can take it a step further and INTENTIONALLY DO OR SAY THINGS that they know will end up hurting someone. Usually those people are damaged or broken in their own way, or pissed off at themselves for being duped, and so they’ve decided that they’re going to continue the cycle of abuse so they can relieve their own pain. – Moxie

I don’t think most people set out to lead someone on or mislead them. Sometimes it happens organically: the intention is there but something or someone else comes along and you get distracted or find yourself losing interest. So you keep putting them off and putting them off, telling yourself you’ll make time for them. There’s a question as to whether we know what we’re doing in those situations. Do we know we’re not interested and are deferring because we just hope the other person will tire of trying eventually? Or do we tell ourselves we are actually interested but just crazy busy or somehow otherwise engaged? Can it be both?

There’s the flip side of the coin. There are the people who hang on to something even though the other person has never promised them anything. There were no expressed intentions. They were just…there. Participating when it worked for them. Abandoning things when it didn’t. In those cases, are they to blame when the person who has latched on to them gets hurt? Do they see what the other person is going through due to this “relationship” and feel bad? Or are they not responsible for how someone else interpreted their actions and words and the importance they placed on them?

How responsible are we for someone else’s feelings? And if we know someone gets hurt by our actions, either because we intentionally mislead them or they chose to believe what they wanted, do we owe them anything?

Do we apologize? Or does that just makes things worse?

I’ve been on both sides of this. I’ve been the one making a sincere apology, and I’ve received a sincere apology. And both times not only did I feel this huge weight lifted from my shoulders for admitting that I was wrong, but I literally saw or felt the transformation that apology had on the other person. Here’s the most powerful thing that can result from a sincere apology. Not only does the guilty party get to unburden themselves, but the person they hurt can be relieved of whatever pain or shame that they have been carrying around with them.

I think when someone disappoints or hurts us, it’s not that we want them just to be responsible for their actions, but we want them to understand how their actions affected us. We want them to feel our pain. We want them to create an itemized list of all the ways and instances where they mislead or hurt us. We don’t just want “I’m sorry.” Those two words, to us in those moments, does not and can not encapsulate everything that had transpired.  But be careful what you wish for. Once those words come tumbling out, others that leave much open to interpretation can follow. You want so badly to fix things and want the other person to know how sincere you are. Unfortunately that  – ensuring you’re perceived in a certain way – becomes the main focus and , well, that basically nulls and voids the actual apology out. So now you’re apologizing for being self-involved…while being self-involved. Apology Fail.

Like I said above…there are a lot of people who walk around feeling not the slightest bit guilty for how they treat others. They have convinced themselves that they are not responsible for someone else’s feelings. And the thing is? They’re not. Nobody can force us to stay hurt and angry. While the initial pain we feel might not be something we can control, it’s a choice to remain in that space in our head. We might never get that apology we crave. We sometimes have to give ourselves that closure.  And that’s going to have to be enough.

But there are others who know, or eventually come around to the fact, that they treated someone badly. The apologies that come from those moments of true introspection are the ones that  mean the most. Unfortunately, we rarely get them. Or give them. We convince ourselves that enough time has passed and the person is probably over it. Or we just shove that memory back down our gullet because  re-living what we did is just too shameful. We like to believe that we’re good people, kind people, with no intention of hurting anyone. Yet, even with these so-called intentions, we do. So what does that say about us?

Now you see why so many people have trouble issuing a genuine apology. To admit you hurt someone is to admit you’re not the person you’d like to think you are.

So here are my questions:

Have you ever done something you knew was hurtful or misleading or in some way “wrong” to someone and issues an apology? Why or why not?

If you knew an apology could alleviate whatever hurt that person was feeling, even if you’re not 100% responsible for it, would you do it?

The Illusionist

Name: Elle  | Location: New York , New York |Question: Hi Moxie. I need some advice. I met this guy, Mark, through a mutual friend at Mark’s New Year’s Eve party. Mark likes to take pictures of others (and pics of himself with others) at his parties and he took a pic of me with our mutual friend. He made a comment about how nice my boobs were to our friend but our friend just laughed it off as a joke.

But since then Mark has showed strong interest in me and I noticed him starring at me at several times during the night. I asked our friend what’s the deal with Mark and that I think he’s interested in me but my friend just dismissed it as said he’s just a flirt. At the end of the night, Mark asked for my number.

We spoke mostly by text for the couple days and things were “normal” getting-to-know you type talk. We talked about our likes and dislikes along with possible date activities. Mark invited me to another party of his the following Saturday and told me that I could come for free. After the 4th day of texting back and forth, we began speaking by telephone.

So I came to the Mark’s party the following Saturday and brought another friend. I noticed that Mark was very “touchy-feely” with me and was making all sorts of flirty comments about my breast, legs, and overall appearance. Mark was constantly checking on us and was always in my face making sexually suggestive comments. My friend thought we had been dating for a while based on his behavior but when I told her that we had not gone out on a date yet, my friend got very upset and approached Mark and demanded that he take me out on a date.

Mark was shocked and stated that he did not have a problem taking me out on a date it just that he didn’t know that I liked him like that so he didn’t ask. He also asked my friend if I was treating and I took offense to that. Mark responded by saying it was a joke and laughed it off. Sometime later, my friend and I left the party but not before saying goodbye to Mark. Mark gave me a big hug and kissed me on both cheeks and invited me to his next party the following week.

Mark and I spoke the following morning and I apologized for my friend’s rant. Mark stated that he didn’t mind taking me out on a date and proceeded to invite me to an outing that evening. I couldn’t make the outing due to work obligations and he said that was okay although he did sound a little frustrated. The conversation was pleasant otherwise and Mark continued to make plans for our first date sometime in the future. Mark then had to get off the phone and he promised to call me back later.

Mark didn’t call back but he did post to his Facebook page pictures from the last party we attended and I was the most photographed girl at Mark’s party. He tagged me in these pictures and all my friends and family thought Mark was my new boyfriend based on how close we were and how we looked in these pictures.

Later that day, my friend that I brought with me to the party told me that she friend requested Mark on Facebook and that Mark and her began to message each other. My friend read the message chain to me and my friend asked Mark again to take me out on a date since he was showing such strong interest in me. Mark replied that he would take me out if I first took him. He also said that “chivalry is dead…” My friend again told Mark to take me out on a date and she assured him that I would have a good time. She also asked him to follow-up with her and to tell her how the date went.

I was outraged at both my friend and Mark. I was upset that my friend would meddle so much in my personal life and her follow-up request to Mark gave me great pause. Furthermore, Mark’s comment about taking him out first was very disturbing and was contrary to our telephone conversations.

Mark’s phone calls and texts became infrequent and it seemed like Mark was distancing himself from me. However, Mark did invite me to his private birthday dinner that week but I didn’t go because I didn’t know where things stood between us.

That is until I saw Mark at another party that following Saturday. He was surprised to see me and he didn’t think I was going to come. We spoke cordially for a few minutes and then he began to compliment me on my clothing and my appearance. He then asked to hug me and he gave me a warm embrace. He told me that the party was for a relative’s birthday and I told Mark that I wanted to keep my distance from him since his child’s mother would be there.

Mark assured me that everything was fine and he took me by the hand and introduced me to some of his relatives. He had already told them about me and it seemed like they already knew me. For the rest of the night, I hung out with my friend on the other side of the dance floor and Mark continuously walked across the crowded dance floor to spend time with me. We spoke about “normal” things but this time Mark took his touchy-feely behavior to another level. Along with the usually flirtation comments about my breast, Mark began to hold and caress me in front of everyone – even touching body parts that, let’s say, are usually touched by someone’s partner in private.

He told me that he wanted to go back to my place but he then changed his mind and said it was too far. Next, Mark went to my friend and told her that we were going to drop her off early and, since it was the holiday weekend, he would bring me back to work on Tuesday. But when I asked Mark if he was sure of all this, Mark stated that he would never ask me to drop my friend off early.

Mark then began to tell me how he just started his new job next month and about how he had to sell his cars to make ends meet because he had been unemployed for a year…. Mark stated that he usually doesn’t have trouble finding a job but he became lazy in his job search so it took longer than usual to land this job. I told Mark that I do not like lazy men and he assured me that he was not lazy – just tired…After that, Mark resumed his touchy-feely dance routine as usual.

At the end of the night, Mark said goodbye and we gave each other a romantic hug. Mark also invited me to his next party this Saturday. I told Mark I would try to make it and that hoped to see him soon and he agreed that we would. Mark never contacted me after that.

Three days later he posted pictures from the party on his Facebook page, including the pictures we took together. Everyone really started to believe we were a couple based on these pictures again but actually we are not. I texted Mark that night and told him that the pictures were nice as usual. He only replied “Thanks” and I haven’t heard from Mark since.

Is Mark stringing me along and acting like a male tease? What would make Mark suddenly change like that? |Age: 33

 

Mark didn’t suddenly change. He was never interested in the first place. He’s a party/club promoter. Part of his job is making sure attractive women attend his parties. That way he can take pictures of them and post them on his Facebook page so people will want to come to his events. He’s also a raging attention whore, another trait of party promoters. Being the “host” of a party makes you the center of attention, the most important person in the room.

This guy is not genuine. He’s not even a player. He’s just some dude trying to make money by promoting parties. He’s not relationship material whatsoever. Think about it. He spends countless hours in clubs and bars flirting with women so they will come to his parties. I guarantee you that at any given time he’s using the same schtick with multiple ladies. I also wouldn’t be surprised if he was some kind of deadbeat looking to leech off some unsuspecting, vulnerable woman.

You saw through him, whether you’re aware of it or not. When you made it clear that you don’t like lazy men, he fled. The game is only fun when the object of someone’s manipulations doesn’t realize it’s a game. This guy is lazy in that he doesn’t want to have to work too hard at convincing people he’s sincere. The goal for him is to make as little effort as possible and reap all the benefits.

He even managed to rope your friend in to his web by getting her all worked up. What’s up with her friend requesting him on FB, by the way? And why is she so concerned about whether or not this guy has asked you out? This guy is a master manipulator, a Svengali. He makes women think whatever it is he wants them to think.  He knows what he’s doing. This isn’t some guy who just genuinely isn’t aware of how his behavior affects others. No. This guy is VERY aware. And clearly very successful at these head games.Look at how he has you and your friend showering him with attention and analyzing his every word and action. These types of people are dangerous to one’s emotional and mental well being. They want to be the center of attention, the focal point of someone’s life. They thrive off the idea that thoughts of them consume people. He is not an enigma. He’s just your garden variety douche. The life he presents to you is not his real life. It’s an act.

Ignore him. Do not engage. This guy has already gotten in to your head. Get him out now before he does real damage.