Guess What? Men Can Be Steaming Plates of “Crazy,” Too
If a man has a psycho ex (or exes), he either has a taste for crazy women…or he does things that drive
normal women insane. Either way, it doesn’t bode well for you. – Aldonza
“Someone who would do this, make this kind of effort, is pissed off or really, really desperate to hold on to their relationship. Only fear, a need for revenge or anger could fuel such behavior.
If a woman is driven to that, then there’s a really good chance that the man is so messed up and so emotionally abusive that he’s not worth the time.” – Moxie
Your conclusion as to the man’s state of being has no foundation. Sometimes some people are just crazy and invent relationships that never existed or didn’t reach the level they wanted. People who behave this way are obviously very unhappy with their lives and are looking for someone else to blame for this unhappiness. Perhaps Moxie should start a course in how to MOVE ON. I see a big market out there, but then again, these people might be to ignorant to know they need this class.- Bronx Rebel
Okay. Here’s my argument.
I think that there are some men out there who are complete and total catastrophes when it comes to relationships. To be clear…The Crazy can take many forms. Crazy can imply controlling, or manipulative or intentionally insensitive or passive aggressive.
They do things like:
- Invite a woman they are trying to bed over to their apartment. That they share with their girlfriend. Who happens to be home at the time. (No, this did not happen to me.)
- Dates multiple women at the same time, friends them all on Facebook, and let’s them all post their various flirty banter on his Wall for all to see. – Sorry, guys who do this are drama queens. Plain and simple. Don’t give me the “well nobody is forcing these women to check his Wall” argument, either. These guys aren’t clueless. No, this did not happen to me.
- Makes specific plans with a woman, then stands her up, only to turn around and tell her that she never confirmed so he assumed they weren’t meeting up. – Oh, hello there passive aggression. Yes. This happened to me.
- Or..let’s see…I’m going to put something totally random and absolutely hypothetical out there...writes a guest post for your blog about all the value he gets from his relationship with you, expounds on all that you taught him and how he hopes when it ends it ends in a spirit of friendship and understanding, then tells you it wasn’t a “break up” letter…and then kicks your ass to the curb 2 days later in a 1,000 word missive where he must have said 5 different times in 5 different ways how unimportant you were, how he’d never be able to be a real friend to you, and that he just now realized all this and was in denial, but still maintained that he “genuinely, affectionately liked you.” Which was 4 days after you said to him “Hey, I don’t think you’re terribly interested. So let’s talk about that before I agree, at your request, to be patient while you travel all around the country for the next month” and he insisted his intentions were honorable. Side Note: If this were, say, two years ago I probably would have posted his letters and guest post on this blog. I thank God I didn’t. I’ve done it in the past. I did it because I enjoyed the drama and I felt justified when I really wasn’t. I totally asked for what I got in this situation and am far, far too old to have been as stupid as I was. I knew it was a mistake and proceeded any way. Publicly shaming him on a blog won’t change that. When we (or at least I) lash out, it’s usually because we feel so powerless that we just need to take back some semblance of control. Only it really just makes matters worse because it makes us look “crazy.” Or at least ridiculously childish. I promised him I wouldn’t do that. Regardless of how badly I believe (because, as a blogger, my POV is almost always skewed by my emotions) he acted, I’ll hold true to that. We both fucked up. We were both stubborn and cowardly, for different reasons.
We’ve been doing a lot of harshing on the ladies here lately, but I think it’s fair to say that some of you Penii People are uh…difficult.. yourselves. Intentionally so. Some of you. Not the majority, not all. Some. Just like “some” women can be irrational and delusional. We’re just asking that you own it instead of acting above it. I’m sure the argument from some men will be that we never take responsibility for our behavior. Many of us do. Really.
When the situation I mentioned above first happened, I pointed a lot if not all the blame on him. “He humiliated me” I said. One long time commenter corrected me. “No…YOU humiliated you.” And I did. I let someone get the best of me. That’s why I was angry. It wasn’t a broken heart that I suffered. It was a bruised ego. I hate that I’m even still talking about it, as it implies that I’m not fully “over it” and have not “moved on” as Bronx Rebel suggests.
What keeps us from fulling moving on is this need to have our hurt feelings acknowledged in a sincere and genuine way. Not with a blanket statement and sweeping admittance of guilt. We want an itemized list of every mistake. We want to know that you’ve actually thought about this apology and that you’ve truly acknowledged what you did was wrong. But that’s our cross to bear, isn’t it? Because the chances of us ever getting that apology is slim to none. And knowing that and owning it..well…it can drive a person a little mad. But that doesn’t mean the guy is totally absolved of any wrong doing.
I was talking with a friend recently. He’s a man I’ve occasionally gotten together with for sex in the past. The last time was several years ago. Maybe 3. Every once in a while he’ll shoot an email to me to say hello. And by “hello” I mean “hey, wanna f—?” I’ve turned him down multiple times, he still tries, and usually it just dissolves in to a conversation about our respective lives and we catch up. We got in to a conversation about how we managed to avoid any drama or conflict. (He actually agreed to let me interview him for a podcast. Stay tuned on that.) He gave me the same answer Tad gave me when I asked him.
“I don’t lie to you and don’t pretend this is something it isn’t.”
It really is that simple, guys. If a woman can carry on casual relationships with men without getting attached or maintain non-combative relationships with exes, then it stands to reason that she’s not totally high maintenance, needy or cloying. Only when certain triggers are tripped does she go “nuts.” Sometimes you bring that out in us. It’s our job to know what our triggers are exist, of course. But there are some people – men and women – out there who just get off on pushing people’s buttons. Sometimes they’re aware of it. Most time they’re not. Or are “in denial.” Whatever the reason…just like we need to know what our triggers are…you need to know and admit that you’re tripping them.
I do not disagree with Bronx Rebel in that sometimes women invent relationships that do not exist. I agree. We try to bang the square peg in to the round hole and then blame the man for our hurt feelings. I understand. But there are some men that want women to do that. That’s all I’m asking you to acknowledge. Sometimes a guy does or says things to intentionally encourage a woman to think that whatever they have going on is more than it is so that he can have more control over her. Doing that implies an intimacy that does not exist. It’s a trick. And it’s intentional.
Maybe the more accurate theory is that we all have our issues and just need to find people who are accommodating of or compatible with our crazy. Someone who pushes our buttons in a good way and encourages us to look within and examine our own issues. (Which, I guess, my situation did do for me. So it wasn’t a total loss. )
POST SCRIPT: I tried to write this so many times without getting personal and I couldn’t. I did the best I could here. To coin an excellent phrase, “this is me more raw and self-aware than I’ve ever allowed myself to be where you’re concerned, and I actually hate myself for it.”
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...And That's Why You're Single 
“To be clear…The Crazy can take many forms. Crazy can imply controlling, or manipulative or intentionally insensitive or passive aggressive.”
So, you’ve redefined “crazy” to mean someone who intentionally adopts a successful social strategy that makes him desirable to women. Crazy to me implies lack of self-control – ie, lack of ability to effect your will — not an abundance of control and skill.
The guys you descrie as “crazy” are in charge. They’re making other people crazy. That’s why you care. I know it irks women to no end that those “other” women do stupid things like chase unavaialable men, and publicly flirt and post on their facebook walls, and write blogs about them. You want men to take responsibility for THAT? No. Women’s behavior and its consequences is solely within the control of women and its THEIR responsibility to stop acting stupidly. No one is forcing any woman to be with these guys.
But why are these men unavaible is the question. Why do they engage with these women then pull back. Your comment suggests women are the only ones who should own responsibility for their stupidity chasing unavailable men, but if we didn’t amuse these game players there would never be any relationships. Not every man emotionally unavailable is single and not every emotionally available man is happy. Who is to know the type person they are dealing with unless some time and effort is invested and it’s not always smooth sailing even when there is. That’s why relationships take work and get messy. I’m not sticking up for unavailable men but I do think some people just make stupid mistakes as a way of remaining in connection to the world, like saying “hey look at me, I’m a mess!”. Eventually, this will catch up with them unless they are the types that can’t reason feelings and actions with some common sense and this type stupidity is common for both genders, not solely women.
What Moxie is saying is that men do bad things and they should admit they do them intentionally which is self defeatist because the type of men who play dirty are the last ones to admit any fault. Just because there is some arbitrary award doesn’t justify the action or make it honorable. If you lie and somebody believes you does that absolve you of the lie? Or just a sociopath who doesn’t care or have empathy for another human being as long as they can serve a purpose to you and oops on them for trusting someone which is what you NEED to form a relationship with someone.
I guess the best you can do and the sort of men she described is to half apologize and then put the blame back on somebody else.
I had the lovely experience of having a long angry email tirade with someone who had caused me great suffering and I know my own vices and addictions led to my own problems in engaging in this friendship. I made a nice tidy itemized statement on why I was upset and what he did that I was angry about and all I got in return was I did this because of YOU. You wanted me to do this. You you you you you then the silent treatment and the return as if nothing ever happened.
Another person felt free to demand a friendship out of me based on mutual respect and then proceeded to hit on me (he had a long time girlfriend) and then BLOW UP when I told him that was not cool and call me every name in the book.
Not shocking these two guys were hated by many mutual friends because they evoked similar unpleasant interactions. Some people just interact with others in very destructive ways either because they have an urge to punish or they don’t know any better but nobody will ever convince me that it wasn’t intentional or it was somehow my fault outside of being an audience when a man acts poorly.
The very first time I started to like my husband was back when we were just acquaintances and we got into a huge blow up fight while playing an online game vs one another. Names were called and it got ugly. A couple of days later he came to me and apologized and said he felt bad and understood my point of view. This was different then the drama queen men I dealt with in the past and it really touched me. Not shocking when we fight now we do come back to each other and apologize. The men and women who are incapable of admitting wrong under any circumstance are the ones we shouldn’t keep bothering with in friendships or relationships.
So, it’s just about admitting fault? Hm. Why do I think you may want a little more from those guys than an apology and admission of wrongdoing. Women want to be chosen.
Most women date for social proof and social gain. There is nothing more attractive in a man to a woman than to be desired (or to appear to be desired) by other women. Men who understand that make themselves more attractive to those women by their “misbehavior.” You only think it’s “wrong” when the guy chooses some other woman instead of you. Then, he’s crazy. But, when he chooses you? All of a sudden he’s no longer “crazy” and you’re never prouder or happier.
Chosen for what exactly? A man who lies to you isn’t going to choose you to be his faithful monogamous partner.
Chosen for a one night stand? A no strings relationship where you still have other woman sharing your man? Or chosen for a relationship that continues to have more lies poured on to you?
Are you advising that woman should continue to want to be chosen and still dance with the drama queens or to get over it and not deal with people who lie to them.
The women who feel a need to compete have a deep rooted insecurity that these men know how to subtly evoke to make them feel anxious and winning him over is the only way to soothe that feeling. However these sorts of woman will also become complacent and irritable if things are too stable and rock the boat so this “relationship” is based on the man making her feel anxious and the woman trying to prove something to him or to herself. A healthy bond does not make and woman should be advised into seeing and avoiding this trap.
DMN, I had one of those crazy drama queen guys that Saj described actually choose me. Didn’t excuse his behavior and didn’t make me want to be with him. In fact, winning in this case actually felt a lot like losing: “I now get to deal with this a**hole for even longer?” yeah, no thanks. I left so fast, and he could NOT get over it. Tried the friend thing, wouldn’t stop hitting on me; I finally told him that was it, I never wanted to see nor speak to him again. I am still dealing with his immature craziness. A year and a half later? Get over it already.
It’s not about wanting someone desired by other women; it’s about wanting someone who desires me and is desired by me. My current boyfriend? I don’t know any other woman who wanted him (besides his ex that I met after the fact, but everyone has one of those). The fact was, I wanted him and he wanted me. He treated me right, and that’s what mattered. Men like you delude themselves into thinking that those stupid tricks and games and deceit will actually work with women. But that’s only because you’ve never had a woman actually be interested in you for you, so you can’t see the difference. You only make her want to make the awkward, crazy vibe disappear, not that she wants to be with you (and any woman who does want to be with you after that is crazy herself, naive, or just really dumb. Have fun with those women).
I really feel bad for you.
Just saw Saj’s other comment above. We basically both said the same things in different ways.
Men, try being an actual gentleman, interested in the women that you truly want to be with. Experience what it is like to have a woman want to be with you because you are nice and have a great personality, connect with her in important ways, get her quirky humor, and enjoy doing the weird things she does. Then, you will see how wrong you were to act like this and all the real relationships and awesome women you were missing out on. Nothing compares to having that true best friend/lover/companion. And there are many out there, not just that one, elusive Miss Right as Western mythology would have us all believe.
then you get a nice, drama-free relationship with a woman who is worth the world to you. Try it.
I can already see this devolving into “men do the Y bad thing, but they choose to do it because it works with women, so it’s not crazy; women do the X bad thing, but it’s because they’re emotional and irrational, and yes, crazy.”
Yes, there are crazy men. And there are men who are dishonest assholes, even though their strategy works to keep a woman constantly by their side. If you don’t want to call the latter guy crazy, then fine, but that doesn’t excuse his behavior.
If someone is going to choose me, I’d rather they do so through honest and straightforward communication, because the lies and manipulation are going to come out eventually, and I’d prefer it was before I’ve developed an attachment that he wants me to have. And if they’re not, it may take some time for me to realize it, because someone who wants to deceive you, if they’re any good at it, will probably be successful for at least some period of time.
But I’ll eventually be glad they’re not with me, and this social proof stuff is pretty much meaningless when that happens. Well-adjusted people don’t want to be with people who lie and deceive, and don’t get off on snagging someone like that from someone else.
A woman is a jerk so she should fix herself.
A man is a jerk because a woman drives him to it so he is blameless. Meh meh and Meh
men who don’t hook up early in life, are just plain lonely….so they run around looking for ms. perfect. what happens they think they find ms. right a couple of times a week…men are as confused as woman….who will ms. right be? ….did i miss her somehow? is she someone i already know? or some one who lives on the other side of the world? with network dating and women everywhere….men can’t decide….what can a gal do? ask him about his mom and his family tree’s history on the first date…..if they have no morals, vaules and long term marriages…run girl, or don’t sleep with them until you know for sure he is a stable man about the 10th date…if he wants to bed u before that…he never planned to stay anyway…so put a dime between u legs…and keep looking for the 11th date with one special man….avoid toxic men and save yourself a lot of hearthache.
I don’t see how those examples qualify as crazy. The men in those examples are assholes, but they are not crazy. When a man I dated a couple of times broke into my house and literally took a dump on my bedroom floor, THAT was crazy.
From what she says, their behavior brings the crazy out of people, not that they’re necessary crazy themselves.
Again, enough of this passive aggressive shit already. There will always be bad men and women out there but you can CHOOSE to be good or to be bad. For example, I know two guys who have been dating their girls for over five years. They are too selfish to tell the girls they will never marry them but are very happy to take up their girlfriends’ prime child bearing years while they look for someone better. They can be brave and risk losing those girls by telling them the truth. Then if the girls stay with them, that’s the girls’ choice. However, not telling them is the guys’ choice to be bad.
As for comment that guys choose to be bad because girls are attracted to them. Bad guys deserve bad girls. The broken attracts the broken.
Those games and tricks do work with women. That’s the problem. If I;m following you correctly, I do agree with you that these women who latch on to these types of guys really aren’t doing so because they like or care for the real him. They do it because they like the idea of him. I know, in my situation, I put the guy on a pedestal because I thought he had social proof – the interesting job in the entertainment industry, the charming accent, the gorgeous ex. I thought that if he could just choose me, then that would mean I wasn’t the total loser I thought I was. It wasn’t until I saw through the facade and behind the curtain did I realize he really wasn’t anything special. His job wasn’t as cool as he talked it up to be. (Much less so, in fact.) He really wasn’t at all charming or interesting other than the accent. It was all smoke and mirrors. We didn’t have some intense attraction at all. I had convinced myself of all of it.
Once you realize you are dating someone for a poor reason such as social proof (and hell yes I’ve done it), you can really see the truth about a man who would do any of the things you’ve listed as The Crazy. A guy wouldn’t take you home where his girlfriend lived because of The Crazy, he’d do it because he doesn’t care about you, not one bit. “I don’t give a shit” is being thrown straight in your face, but you don’t notice it because he you are blinded by that social proof you seek. And his actions continue to loudly speak “I don’t care” but you can’t accept that, so you make up excuses in your head, and so he keeps treating you like the incredibly insignificant person that you are, and this is how you end up making yourself crazy. Forcing yourself to ignore the obvious will drive anyone crazy. Believe me, if a man were a mediocre package in your eyes, you’d think “screw him” and move on at the first sign of rude behavior. (And though I keep saying “you” I don’t necessarily mean you specifically. I’m thinking of women collectively who have dated a few men who made them crazy.)
>>>I thought that if he could just choose me, then that would mean I wasn’t the total loser I thought I was.
That’s the most critical sentence in all your posts on this guy, Moxie. Until you, or anyone else who feels similarly, can fix that part, and stop looking outside yourself for validation, then you’re always going to be on the treadmill looking for social proof, and are going to end up in situations where you feel worse about yourself instead of better (perpetuating the low-self-esteem cycle). I think we’ve all been there, but it can take a while to recognize it in any given situation, and it’s hard to have too much self-esteem, so it’s something to work on even while you’re single.
I also wonder if he took “Hey, I don’t think you’re terribly interested. So let’s talk about that before I agree, at your request, to be patient while you travel all around the country for the next month” as a sign that you were going to break up with him, and so did what he did as a pre-emptive breakup. Not to justify it, and I certainly understand why you wouldn’t want to discuss that in much detail here, but as someone who spends a fair amount of traveling around the country, I would hope that someone wouldn’t have a hard time being patient in my absence for one month after several months of dating.
No, he wasn’t at all worried that I was trying to “break up” with him. I paraphrased what I actually said to him. He emailed and said he was going to be traveling for most of the month and asked if “we could put things on ice” until February. Which was the third similar request he made in the span of 3 weeks. We weren’t dating, we were fucking. You can’t make an hour or two to repeat what you call “the most incredible sexual experience in recent years” then you’re just not that interested. And trust me. I know that compliment was just one of many he peppered in to conversation to keep me all swoony and ga ga. If the instance he was referring to was the “best” sex he’d had in the past few years, then he’s had a pretty boring and lack luster sex life.
Yep, I see what you mean. If a guy can’t make room for that, then something else is going on.
And spending 1000 words on ending a “just sex” thing — that probably took him longer than another “incredible sexual experience,” with far less gratification…
I guess a good step is to start examining guys based on why you like him independent of his job or number of number of women he seems to be juggling. The most manipulative guy I know had a Liverpool accent so now I cringe whenever I hear anyone else who has it.
I’m convinced this has to do with the relationship that women have with their fathers. Many girls out there had men in their lives who were absent or emotionally distant or just weren’t there for them in the ways the girls needed them to be. This caused them to feel like they need to try harder or be better to win the affections of a man rather then trusting themselves that forcing a man to like them will not validate them.
Men like DWM using this weakness to exploit them is just kicking someone while they are down and really is what makes someone evil. The thought process of the ends always justify the means rather then having a moral compass to guide you.
Who is this DWM? He sounds toxic. At least we all know karma will take care of him.
Anyway, one person’s “evil” is another’s “refreshing honesty.”
My God, DrivingMeNuts you are so full of yourself. It’s kind of incredible.
Is what you are saying honest? Sure. It’s true in your context. But it’s not the ONLY TRUTH. You are so black and white it’s impressive, on one hand, and sad, on another.
Here’s what I took from Moxie’s post. 1. Men and women. We do bad things to each other. We both manipulate each other. We do it in different ways. It’s brutal and not 100% mentally healthy in either incarnation. 2. It’d be great if more men would stand up and recognize that they contribute to the issue, instead of passing the buck. 3. Some women really do realize they need to improve and say so. Where are they guys doing the same (because surely they exist.)
What’s to dislike about this post?
Rofl I don’t believe in karma. Sorry on another forum there is somebody who uses DWM.
I can say I steal old ladies vicadin pills and sell it on the street for some extra cash. Shame on them for letting me into their homes when I convinced them I was looking for a gas leak. I blame them for their poor eyesight and for being naive. It’s ok because I’m refreshingly honest but not to them just on a forum where there are no consequences so I can enlighten (brag) on how silly I find them.
Crazy is usually defined as acting in an irrational way, although I agree with DWN that some of these guys reap enough benefits from their “craziness” that it could be a rational decision to act that way.
Now, I’m less afraid of crazy people than I am of crazy-makers. You know the ones. They’re easy to spot as they all have “no drama” on their dating profiles. It never quite occurs to them how much of their inconsistent behavior creates all that drama.
I don’t expect the crazy-makers to apologize though. They are who they are. They think they’re rational and sane just like most people do. Those of us who know we’re insane are certainly not going to convince them otherwise.
I wasn’t trying to imply that the sex was in any way bad. It wasn’t. While I don’t like how he handled things, I also don’t want him to read this (which is possible, although at this point unlikely) and think I was taking a shot at his manhood or prowess.
With all due respect, why do you care if he did read the post?! He was probably screwing someone else, anyway. And I’ve been fed the “best sex ” line too. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t, but if the guy wants to keep you around (even if…and esp if….) its just for sex, he isn’t going to say “wow, that sex act really sucked ass”!!!!
I’m not happy with how things played out, but I played a part in that as much as he did. I find publicly slamming a guy for being bad in bed just for revenge is classless and would just make me look like some scorned woman. I don’t know. Just kind of over the whole bashing men who dump me thing. It’s exhausting to write as it is to read.